4. Misfit in Hell to Heaven Expat

(podcast version)

[00:00:00] Kathy: And, you know, he didn't have to say it, but the inference was you'll either wake up or you won't. So I said goodbye to my family, and it went black.

[00:00:09] Steve: Have you ever had that experience where life had been racing along week after week, and everything was okay? Yes, there were problems, but everything felt normal. And then something happened and suddenly life wasn't normal anymore. Meet Kathy McDaniel. 

[00:01:11] Kathy: I was born in St. Louis, Missouri. My dad was in the military, so we moved often. That was kind of a difficult thing for me. 

[00:01:19] I went to Catholic schools, so that was very well policed by the nuns and the priests. So there was really no problems. I mean, the worst thing would happen I think, was we threw toilet paper on some trees of the neighbours at Halloween and got in a lot of trouble. 

[00:01:36] My dad was an avowed atheist until his plane got shot down in World War II. And it landed upside down in flames on a beach where they were shooting guns at one another. So he said to God, "If you're out there, save me and I will become a Catholic and so will my family". And just as he said those words, the Marines came out of the jungle, got him out of the plane and dragged him to a medic.

[00:01:59] So we all became Catholic. They were very devoted. Both my parents. It was impressed upon me that there were certain rules and they were to be obeyed and that there was gonna be, a heaven, a purgatory, or a hell. 

[00:02:13] Steve: Although Kathy didn't realize it at the time, her father's life-threatening experience and subsequent conversion to Catholicism would have a profound influence on her in later life in a way that she could never imagine.

[00:02:27] Kathy: I was engaged to a wonderful man for seven years but when he had an opportunity to go from the West Coast to the East Coast to really improve his status at his work, he couldn't turn it down and I couldn't go with him. 

[00:02:42] So we stayed very close friends. H e called me probably a year later and said, "We need to talk. I have leukemia". 

[00:02:51] And this was supposed to be a two or three month operation. It turned into just short of nine months. Well, he died. I was an emotional, physical, spiritual wreck. And, not too long after that, a gentleman I had been dating for a short time, took me to a Southern California singing concert and I'd caught a horrible flu that was going around. By the time he'd pulled into the parking lot, I had passed out on the street trying to get into the clinic. He had to pick me up, carry me in. I had no pulse. 

[00:03:26] Steve: The trauma, stress and sheer exertion of the previous nine months had taken its toll on Kathy's health. Right now, she was teetering somewhere between life and death. 

[00:03:41] Kathy: So they put me in an ambulance, took me to the hospital. They said I had a 38% chance of making it, that I had lung failure. It was called "ARDS"- Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome.

[00:03:54] So the last thing I heard from the doctor was, "We're gonna put you out. And I'm giving you something called White Amnesia. You will not be able to remember anything. Okay? So don't worry about it". The inference was you'll either wake up or you won't. So I said goodbye to my family, and it went black. 

[00:04:13] Steve: The nature of White Amnesia meant that Kathy wouldn't be able to remember anything during her drug-induced coma. So what happened next should have been that she remembers waking up from her coma. But it wasn't. 

[00:04:29] Kathy describes being conscious. She didn't feel dead, just confused. She became aware of something staring at her, which let out what she described as "an ear splitting, maniacal laugh". It moved ever closer to her and she ran.

[00:04:47] Kathy: After I ran, it was still very dark, but all of a sudden the lights came up, like I was on a movie set. As I looked around, I was shocked to see that I was in what was remaining of a bombed out city. 

[00:05:04] ...after a few seconds, the lights came up and I was looking at what can only be described as a demon. It was huge. It was like, I don't know if he ever ran into Bigfoot somewhere and, and he had... 

[00:05:17] (entry point) 

[00:05:17] Kathy: They were bright, warm lights, and I was fused with this love and joy and bliss that words can't describe. I noticed that the light started having some shape to it. And, there was like white walls and white floor... 

[00:05:34] ...they kept giving me this gifts and pointing down the river, and I finally got to the end of the river and the last lady said, "Give this to Ron".

[00:05:42] That was the man I had been dating. "Tell him, You must live together". And I thought, "This is all just so weird, whatever", and I took it, . There were strange people moving around and I thought, "Oh no, I'm back in hell". 

[00:05:57] And then one of the people said, " Mom's back". And she came running over and sat down and my mother turned around and my dad and they're all so happy they're crying. And my daughter says, "You've been so sick, mom. We almost lost you. 

[00:06:12] Steve: Kathy's experience was undoubtedly life changing. For 10 years, she'd internalized the fact that she believed she'd actually visited hell. For 10 years no one would listen to her. 

[00:06:25] Certainly she was told she wouldn't have any memories of the coma. White Amnesia should have taken care of that. But she did, and the length and vivid nature of the memory is extraordinary. However, White Amnesia is a form of cannabis among whose side effects are listed 'hallucinations'. So I wanted to know from Kathy why she was so sure this was a near-death experience. 

[00:06:51] Kathy: Well, again, I've done a lot of reading and studying and met a lot of people; the neurosurgeons, 

[00:06:57] the attorneys the people that you know are smarter than me, supposedly, had these same experiences and they have no doubts. Dreams fade by the next morning. I was told that my brain could not remember anything that would happen in that coma and my brain did not. But my soul did. 

[00:07:18] Steve: Kathy's experience occurred while in a coma, not when her heart stopped, as you might imagine.

[00:07:24] Kathy: That's correct. And having been around the IANDS group, the International Association of Near-Death Studies, I've been around hundreds of NDE'ers and it's well accepted that a person in a coma, somehow your soul drifts off and you can have a near-death experience without flatlining.

[00:07:43] Steve: What is your definition of a near-death experience?

[00:07:47] Kathy: A near-death experience for me was waking up or becoming conscious in another realm. I never felt dead, Steve. I just felt me. People ask me, "Well did you see your feet? Did you see your body?" Well, I didn't think to do that. And they said, "Well how much time were you there?" Well, there's no time on the other side.

[00:08:08] You don't have a clock. You don't have a mirror. It's just you. And you're not in Kansas anymore, as Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz said. It's a very, very strange experience. 

[00:08:20] Steve: So Kathy's view of religion inevitably changed, and actually, was this a religious experience at all?

[00:08:28] (entry point below) 

[00:08:28] Kathy: Not for me. Some people talk to Jesus, talk to Buddha, talk to angels and guides. All the religions seem to be so exclusive rather than inclusive. They all have man-made rules: If you do not follow our religion or our rules, you will go to hell. People that come back are usually spiritual, not religious. 

[00:08:51] I don't believe that God condemns anybody. I was taught that I would go to purgatory and I wasn't disappointed. And I also believe that we plan our own lives to have experiences here on Earth and then we go back to heaven and I believe therefore that I plan that too. 

[00:09:07] Steve: Part of Kathy's catharsis was to write a book, " Misfit In Hell to Heaven Expat", which having heard the story, beautifully fits the narrative, but I couldn't help asking what possessed her. 

[00:09:21] Kathy: It was a possession. I mean, I was always a writer. But when I got back, that hell thing was haunting me so terribly. I thought if I could just write this out, you know, and put it in a drawer, maybe it'll go away. And that went on for 10 years.

[00:09:36] I got it done. And then I got a call from Kirsty Salisbury from 

[00:09:41] New Zealand, and she says, I want you to be on my podcast for NDE'ers I said, What's a podcast?

[00:09:48] And she says, "Well it's 

[00:09:49] kinda like a radio show I says, Oh, okay. 

[00:09:53] Steve: You've seen this experience as a chance to help others. Can you just expand on that a little bit for me? 

[00:10:00] Kathy: It took me a long time to realize that what happened to me was a blessing, not a curse. I've been able to reach a lot of people who have the same fears I used to have, and just share my story and give them hope.

[00:10:15] I was given a message, a couple years after the experience when I was starting to doubt was going on, and I asked God, "Please give me some positive things to make a mantra out of, so that I can every day remind myself that all this was real" . And he said to be loving and kind, merciful, forgiving, encouraging, grateful, nonjudgmental and useful. 

[00:10:43] So, that's what I would suggest to people. That's what Jesus taught. That's what Buddha taught. That's what all the great people taught. If you can just remember to be loving and kind.

[00:10:53] Steve: Well, there's something we can all agree on. And if that's the message that comes out of this journey, then what's the problem? As for Kathy, has she got back to normal yet?

[00:11:05] Kathy: Once you've had that experience, it changes you. You can't just go back to being your everyday human anymore, it's impossible.

[00:11:16] 

------------------

(extended version)

[00:00:00] Kathy: And, you know, he didn't have to say it, but the inference was you'll either wake up or you won't. So I said goodbye to my family, and it went black.

[00:00:10] Steve: Have you ever had that experience where life had been racing along week after week, and everything was okay? Yes, there were problems, but everything felt normal. And then something happened and suddenly life wasn't normal anymore. Meet Kathy McDaniel. 

[00:01:13] Kathy: I was born in St. Louis, Missouri. That's the middle of the United States. My dad was in the military, so we moved often. We moved to New York, Maryland, Kansas City and California. And by that time, yes, I travelled quite a bit.

[00:01:34] I was always the new kid in school. That was kind of a difficult thing for me. And then I stayed in Santa Cruz, California for 35 years. That's where I was for high school. And I got married there and raised my kids, and also started my own property management company. I was in the property management business throughout my life, for 40 years actually.

[00:01:58] Steve: Kathy was born just after World War II and remembers the fifties and sixties with great fondness.

[00:02:04] Kathy: It was an idyllic time. I still talk to people on Facebook about it. We all agree we could just get on our bicycles and leave the house in the morning, and our mom just said, "Be back by dinner time". We didn't have to worry about wandering off or crazy people kidnapping us or anything like that. 

[00:02:24] I went to Catholic schools, so that was very well policed by the nuns and the priests. So there was really no problems. I mean, the worst thing would happen I think, in my whole career of being a student was we threw toilet paper on some trees of the neighbours at Halloween and got in a lot of trouble. You know, you darn juvenile delinquents. But it was a very safe place to grow up and I wish my kids had had that.

[00:02:53] My dad was an avowed atheist until his plane got shot down in World War II. And it landed upside down in flames on a a beach where they were shooting guns at one another. So he said to God, If you're out there, save me and I will become a Catholic and so will my family. And just as he said those words, the Marines came out of the jungle, got him out of the plane and dragged him to a medic.

[00:03:18] So we all became Catholic. They were very devoted. Both my parents. Dad read the scriptures in mass and my mother helped with the communion. And, again, always going to Catholic schools, it was impressed upon me that that there were certain rules and they were to be obeyed and that there was gonna be, at the end of my death, there was going to be a heaven, a purgatory, or a hell.

[00:03:44] And unless I was Mother Teresa herself, I would not go straight to heaven. I would spend time in purgatory. And so to prepare, all us Catholic kids got really good at math. We were told like if we said a Rosary, we would get 500 days off our time in purgatory, but if we, you know, hit our sister with a stick, then we'd have to spend 345 days in purgatory. So we were always trying to even that out so it was kind of a wash when we died. 

[00:04:14] Steve: Although Kathy didn't realize it at the time, her father's life-threatening experience and subsequent conversion to Catholicism would have a profound influence on her in later life in a way that she could never imagine.

[00:04:29] Kathy: Well, I don't think I ever had a normal life Steve. During the time between landing in, Santa Cruz for my high school, I managed to get married and divorced twice. I had two children. I started my own business. I was engaged to a wonderful man for seven years and he encouraged me to start my own business.

[00:04:57] If it hadn't been for him, I wouldn't have done it. But when he had an opportunity to go from the West Coast to the East Coast to really improve his status at his work, he couldn't turn it down and I couldn't go with him. I just couldn't leave my family, my kids, my business and just traipes off to the East Coast with nothing to do.

[00:05:19] So we stayed very close friends, H there was no hard feelings. e called me probably a year later and said, "We need to talk. I I'm flying out". And I was quite concerned about it. I couldn't imagine what was going on. So when he came out he said, "I have leukemia". Now he was 52 years old. I was 51 and he was always in excellent health, but I was totally shocked and distressed.

[00:05:49] And he says, "I need two caregivers because I'm going to a research hospital and they won't let me in the program without it. Would you be one of my caregivers?" I said, "Sure, you betcha". So, there was some time to prepare. I had recently sold my business and I just packed everything up. I flew to Seattle where the hospital was and found us an apartment.

[00:06:14] We waited till March 1st 1999, and he and the other caregiver showed up and this was supposed to be a two or three month operation. And it turned into just short of nine months. And over that period of time, it was nothing but trauma. He'd get better, he'd get worse, he'd get better. He'd wake up in the middle of the night, bleeding from the nose.

[00:06:39] He couldn't stop bleeding. It was just a constant traipsing all hours of the day and night to and from the hospital, to the apartment. And then the other caregiver broke her foot and was on crutches. So now I was taking care of her too. Well, he died and I just wasn't prepared for that.

[00:07:00] And by then I was an emotional, physical, spiritual wreck. And, not too long after that, a gentleman I had been dating for a short time, took me to a Southern California singing concert and I'd caught a horrible flu that was going around. By the time I got back, I was deathly ill. I barely got to a, like an emergency clinic. By the time, he'd pulled into the parking lot, I had passed out on the street trying to get into the clinic. He had to pick me up, carry me in. I had no pulse. 

[00:07:39] (The trauma, stress and sheer exersion of the previous nine months had taken its toll on Kathy's health. Right now, she was teetering somewhere between life and death.) 

[00:07:39] Steve: The trauma, stress and sheer exertion of the previous nine months had taken its toll on Kathy's health. Right now, she was teetering somewhere between life and death. 

[00:07:54] Kathy: So they put me in an ambulance, took me to the hospital. I was in the emergency room, and then in the intensive care unit where they had called my family. They said I had a 38% chance of making it, that I had lung failure. It was called "ARDS"- Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome and they were gonna have to put me into a drug induced coma, intubate me just like they did with all the Covid people and pray. They'd do everything they could, but this was 23 years ago and they didn't have a whole lot that they could offer. 

[00:08:30] So the last thing I heard from the doctor was, "We're gonna put you out. You don't wanna know what we're doing to you. So this way we can take better care of you if you're in this drug induced coma, and I'm giving you something called White Amnesia. You will not be able to remember anything that happens to you in this coma. Okay? So don't worry about it". 

[00:08:53] And, you know, he didn't have to say it, but the inference was you'll either wake up or you won't. So I said goodbye to my family, and it went black. 

[00:09:02] Steve: The doctor had been quite clear. The nature of White Amnesia meant that Kathy wouldn't be able to remember anything during her drug-induced coma. So what happened next should have been that she remembers waking up from her coma. But it wasn't. 

[00:09:22] Kathy describes being conscious. She didn't feel dead, just confused. She became aware of something staring at her, which let out what she described as "an ear splitting, maniacal laugh". It moved ever closer to her and she ran.

[00:09:41] Kathy: After I ran, it was still very dark, but all of a sudden the lights came up, like I was on a movie set. As I looked around, I was shocked to see that I was in what was remaining of a bombed out city... 

[00:10:02] (voice over here) 

[00:10:02] Kathy: It looked like someone had destroyed New York City or some other large city that the buildings were, falling over. and, cracked. the windows were blown out. there were fires everywhere, people screaming and, I, didn't know what had happened. I was just dropped into the situation. So I found a, couple of big pieces of concrete and I'd kind of tucked inside there so I could get my bearings and, look around. I was a little shocked to see what looked like a group of people, but they weren't really people. It was so foggy and smoky. I could barely make them out coming toward me and I was rather concerned. I didn't know if they were a friend or foe and so I kind of yelled out, "Hey, can I join you guys and maybe we can look for food or water or something?"

[00:11:00] And one of them just said, "We are all alone here." And they turned to walk away. 

[00:11:09] And so next I started seeing shadows and hearing, scraping sounds of metal and I didn't know if there were tanks. I didn't know if this was an alien invasion. I just knew I had to find a 

[00:11:23] safer place. So I ran out into this, this tangled mess of concrete and tried to get up over a wall thinking maybe I could see better.

[00:11:33] And As I climbed, my hands started slipping and I fell backwards into the dark and it was pitch dark again. After a few seconds, the lights came up and I was looking at what can only be described as a demon. It was huge. It was like, I don't know if he ever ran into Bigfoot somewhere and, and he had tattered clothes on, was carrying a club and I was, you know, a foot and a half away from this thing.

[00:12:03] There was no getting away. So as I leaned back to look up to find his face, he said, in perfect English, Do you wanna get outta here? And that startled me. And I said, "Yes". And he says, "Okay, I will get you out. I've got a job for you. But if you complete this job, I will see that you get out". And I thought, "Okay, okay, fine. What is it?" 

[00:12:27] Well, it had been dark behind him, but now the lights came up behind him, and all I could see as far as the horizon was this huge patch of blackberry vines. They're very thick and they have long thorns on them, and in Washington, they're everywhere that the nature is allowed to take over.

[00:12:46] And I'd spent a lot of time in my own houses trying to get rid of these things. So I looked at him, "You've gotta be kidding". And he said,"No". And he handed me a pair of children's scissors that's used to cut paper, and I thought, "Wait a minute. This is some kind of cruel joke", and he just smiled. I started to try and get myself down to the ground level, but I was getting all cut up with his thorns and I, the scissors were almost useless. But I started gawing away at this one cane, and it took me quite a while, but I finally got it to separate and I went to put it behind me so I could start on another one. And when I turned around, I watched as the cane grew back.

[00:13:29] And I looked up at the demon and he just started laughing and he told me, "Just give up, just despair. You're never getting out of here". And I thought, "No, no, no. I'm not a quitter and I am getting outta here". So I started cutting again and the scene went black, and when it came up again, I was in a different place.

[00:13:54] The next place was a horror. It was a hospital, and I could see the white walls on the white floor and smell the disinfectant. And on either side of me were doors and I didn't know which one to try first, but I thought, "Doors good. I can maybe get out now". But as I turned from one door to the other, I looked down the hallway and here comes another one of these huge demons.

[00:14:21] This one had some sort of truncheon, a metal cane of some sort that is used to beat prisoners. And, and he was very fast. So he got before I could choose a door, he was right in front of me and he says, "You've got another job". And I said, "Oh, okay". Because I thought, I don't wanna get this guy mad and there's two doors here.

[00:14:46] If he gives me an opportunity to go in either of these rooms, possibly there's another real person, somebody a back door, I've gotta get out of here. So he says, "You're gonna go in that door on the right. You're gonna take what they give you, and then you're gonna go to the door on the left and put that down, come back into the hallway, back into the right, back into the left.

[00:15:08] You got it?" I said, "Sure. How hard is that?" So I went into the room on the right and I was surprised to see all these gurneys, people laying on these beds, not beds, the gurneys that they scoot around patients from room to room. And there were, there were, doctors, I guess, sitting in front of each of these gurneys, and I noticed that they must have been women. 

[00:15:35] Their legs were splayed. They had a dirty sheet over them, and, and the doctors' backs were to me. All of a sudden, one of them raised his hand and kind of waved, and I, I was stunned and I just stood there and he turned around and yelled at me. He says, "Get over here!" So, I was startled and I went up and he says, "Put your arms out". And I did. And he had been doing an abortion on this poor woman, and he put what was left into my hands. 

[00:16:03] Oh, I was shocked. I was a pro-lifer on earth. I had worked with an organization that helped women keep their babies. So this was just horrible for me. He says, "Get out of here". So I went into the middle of the hallway and looked at this demon and he says, "What are you waiting for? Get into the other room". So I went in the other room and when I walked in I was just totally horrified to see these mountains and piles of all these desecrated babies, and it stunk in there and it was just hideous. 

[00:16:38] And I went over and I laid this poor thing down on the floor and went back into the hallway And I said, "I'm not doing that".

[00:16:45] He says, "Oh, oh yeah, you are". And I said, "No, I am not". And it's disgusting and I'm not gonna do it. And he says, "Oh, you don't know what you're asking for now. It only gets worse". And he raised that stick to hit me and I closed my eyes and I woke up again as the lights came up. I was on the road. 

[00:17:08] I call it the road. I, don't know what else to call it. In between some of these scenarios, I would just find myself on this dirt road, rough road with rocks on it, and it just went one direction or the other. No signs. I always went to the right. That was just kind of what I did. And in the horizon there was that reddish glow still there but no stars, no moon, no nothing. And, cold and scary, you know. 

[00:17:42] So I would walk on this road and it would at least feel a little safer to me because I could see if somebody was sneaking up behind me, and I could catch my breath and I could try and figure out what was happening. And it, sometimes I just walked for the longest time. I thought, "Geez, maybe this is one big treadmill". I don't think I'm getting anywhere. You know, I don't see any scenery changes. 

[00:18:06] But one time I did. I came to a spot where I had been smelling something really good for a change. And I thought, "Wow, you know, I've been here a long time. I could really, I'm hungry. I'm thirsty, I'm tired, I need some help".

[00:18:23] And when I started smelling this, I thought, "Oh thank goodness there's something, maybe I can find it to get from these people". And when I got there on the road, on one side was a man sitting in a chair observing a lady on the other side. And she had tables and tables of all this wonderful food just overflowing. 

[00:18:45] Oh, it just looked like a banquet. And so I looked to the lady and I was startled to see that she was a very close relative of mine. And dear, a dear girl, and I was shocked. I thought, again Steve I did not know I was dead. I didn't know where I was. So I saw her and I said to her, "Oh my gosh, what are you doing here?" You know? And she said, "Oh, I'm busy. I've got all this food to prepare for the party here". 

[00:19:14] And I said, "Well, you know, gee, if I know you're busy, but could you get me a small plate, just put anything on it and a glass of water, I'd really, really appreciate it. And she stopped and looked at me and said, "Well, this is for the important people". Well that hurt. And I said, "Oh, okay. I'm sorry". And so I got back on the road and kept going. 

[00:19:40] Other things happen a long way, but the next thing that I'll report is that I saw people wandering back and forth across the road in the distance. And that was kind of good news, bad news, because I hadn't met anybody yet that was helpful.

[00:19:57] And most were dangerous. So I slowed down and I thought, "Well, there's no way for me to get going down this road unless I go through that group of people". And as I got closer, I noticed that they really probably weren't people. They were just, I don't know what they were, they were more like zombies. They were kind of making grrr noises and they were walking with limps and dragging their legs and they were in rags and they'd bump into each other and looked like they were gonna fight.

[00:20:29] And I thought, Oh, expletive, this is not gonna be good. So I thought maybe if I just put my eyes down, maybe shuffle a little bit like they are, maybe they won't notice when I go through them and I can get to the other side. And I got in the middle and they noticed, they all froze. I froze. 

[00:20:52] The ones that looked like they might be women with scarves and rags on their head backed off and nothing was left but the obvious men in the middle who now all turned toward me. They looked like they were lepers. Their skin was falling off and they were, they just, there was nothing much human left about them, and they started closing in and one punched me in the chest and I fell to the ground and another kicked me.

[00:21:22] And then they did terrible things to me as a group. And when they were finished, they backed up and one of them lean forward and got close to my face. I noticed his cheek was kind of falling off and the stench from his breath was awful. And he says, "We all had AIDS and now you have it and you're going to die".

[00:21:45] But you know what? You don't really die. You will just get worse and worse. And then they backed off when this lady demon came up and kind of shoved them out of the way. And she pointed at me and says, "You're with us. You're one of us now". And I got up, I had no idea what that meant, but I wanted away from this group. And so she took me over to where there was a, just a small group of women who looked like they'd probably been through the same thing I had, and all their clothes were 

[00:22:19] tattered and, she says, Come along. And we got on a single file. And as we left the darkness, we kind of crossed a barrier out of trees or something.

[00:22:28] And as far as we could see, was like the tundra of Alaska. It was just flat, ice and snow. And as we started off single file behind her, it started to really snow heavily. And I don't know how long we walked, as I've said before, cold as hell as a real thing. And we walked and walked until the snow was about chest high.

[00:22:54] I that how difficult it was, we had to trudge in each other's footsteps to stay out of the drifts and finally came to this, what a poor excuse for a cabin. There was no insulation and it was, the boards weren't tight. And she shuffled us in there and we thought, "Well, at least maybe we'd be out of the wind".

[00:23:18] And she says, "Okay, now we wait for customers". That didn't sound good. We all started sitting down on the floor. I was starting to feel like, "You know what? Maybe I won't get outta here. I've been here for, I don't even know how long I've been here, and it just keeps getting worse and worse". And I was getting a little depressed.

[00:23:40] And I said to this Demon lady, I says, "I, you know, I've been doing pretty well, but I'm starting to feel a little down. Is there something extra ordinarily bad about that I don't know about?" And she says, "Well, it's Christmas on Earth? That's always the worst day in hell". 

[00:24:01] And I thought, "Hell, whoa, this is more serious than I thought". And I thought, "Well, I've gotten this far and I'm not gonna give up". So I thought I'm gonna just be a brat. And I started singing a Christmas Carol and it was my favorite, Away in a Manger. And I started off ,"Away in a manger..." and she yelled at me, "Stop that".

[00:24:29] And I was singing, "No crib for his bed". The other lady started singing too, and she says, "I'm warning you". And I says, "The little Lord...". and she shrieked and jumped at me from across the room and I just closed my eyes and it got dark and then the lights came up. 

[00:24:50] But this time, they were bright, warm lights. And I was fused with this love and joy and bliss that words can't describe. And I had forgotten everything that had happened before and I was just revelling in this, this joy. I felt like I was soaked in love. It was wonderful. 

[00:25:16] And as I enjoyed myself, I I noticed that the light started having some shape to it. And there was like white walls and white floor and white, not really ceiling. It wasn't really like, it's hard to describe. It was thicker than fog, but it wasn't cement.

[00:25:36] As I looked over to the side, what caught my eye was like a big architect's table with a huge book, kinda like at the old fashioned Bibles. And it was open halfway. And I remembered looking in that book and being told something about it, but I couldn't remember what it was. And I thought, Oh, nevermind. And when I looked to the front, there was my friend that had died the month before of leukemia. 

[00:26:05] And when he died, it's not a pretty sight. You know, they don't have any hairs. Face was all modelled and I was swollen with infection and, but he looked great. He looked great. He didn't look 52, 53, he looked about 35. His hair was brown instead of gray and he was smiling ear to ear. 

[00:26:24] And he was even wearing a sweater I gave him for Christmas. I mean, it was him. And he was laughing and I thought, "Oh, he doesn't know he's dead. And he really started laughing then and, I thought, Wait a minute, if he's dead, then I'm dead. And oh my gosh, this is terrific, terrific news". I was so happy.

[00:26:49] It couldn't get any better being in heaven with him, and I noticed he was standing in front of a door, kinda an arch doorway. And I glanced again back at that book. I thought, "What's up?" I said, "All right. Why are we just standing here, you know, let's go see, you know, the rainbows and butterflies and angels and stuff?" 

[00:27:09] And he came a little closer, but not close enough to where I could touch him and just said, "Now, Mary Kay, you've got too much left to do". Oh, I felt like he'd thrown a cold glass of water in my face. I said, "No, absolutely not, no". And I just crossed my arms. I stepped what that foot that I didn't have and, and just, just glared at him. 

[00:27:35] And he smiled . And it was black. And then when the light came up, I guess God decided to give me a timeout or something because I was very angry. And I was near this stream and there was this beautiful meadow and the nice flowers and all that stuff, but it was obvious I had to go back, so I, I felt like I needed to follow the stream back. 

[00:28:00] Along that way there were three different ladies who gave me trousseau items, like I was gonna get married, and they spoke to me in Norwegian or something I didn't understand. They kept giving me this gifts and pointing down the river, and I finally got to the end of the river and the last lady said, "Give this to Ron".

[00:28:20] That was the man I had been dating. "Tell him, You must live together". And I thought, "This is all just so weird, whatever". And I took it, and then the lights went out. The lights came up, and it was too hot, I couldn't move. There were strange people moving around and I thought, "Oh no, I'm back in hell". 

[00:28:46] And then one of the people said, "Mom's back". And she came running over and sat down and my mother turned around and my dad and, they're all so happy they're crying. And I thought, I don't know what's going on. And my daughter says, "You've been so sick, mom. We almost lost you. But you're still intubated. You can't talk. You're on oxygen. It's gonna be a long haul back, but you're gonna be okay. You're gonna be okay. Oh, that was awful.

[00:29:20] It was really awful and I was so mad and, and I didn't know, I thought, "My God, I can't even breathe by myself. I can't move. How, What's this? You've got too much left to do stuff". I mean, I was just, I was just beaten. So I was there another week in ICU and then I finally was able to get to a rehabilitation hospital for a month because I weighed 86 pounds. I had no muscle mass, I had no muscle memory. I had to learn how to walk, talk, crawl, butt and swallow, go up and downstairs, everything in a month. That's all the insurance company gave me. 

[00:30:05] And I worked my fanny off what was left of it. And Ron had been coming to see me every day in the hospital. He proposed while we were there. The doctor had given me choice, go live with your mom and dad or somebody else. So he, by then, was so glad that I was back and so he proposed and I told him about the ladies. And, he's Norwegian, so that was kind of what that was all about. Then it was trying to get my life back.

[00:30:43] Steve: Kathy's experience was undoubtedly life changing. For 10 years, she'd internalized the fact that she believed she'd actually visited hell. For 10 years, no one would listen to her. Then she came across IANDS, the International Association for Near Death Studies. They did listen and were quite sure that Cathy had had a near-death experience while lying in a coma.

[00:31:13] Certainly she was told she wouldn't have any memories of the coma. White amnesia should have taken care of that. But she did, and the length and vivid nature of the memory is extraordinary. However, White Amnesia is a form of cannabis among whose side effects are listed 'hallucinations'. So I wanted to know from Kathy why she was so sure this was a near-death experience. 

(Note: In 17. Better the Devil You Know, David Gerrelli talks about the science behind near-death experiences)

[00:31:40] Kathy: Well, again, I've done a lot of reading and studying and met a lot of people; the the neurosurgeons, 

[00:31:48] the attorneys the people that you know are smarter than me, supposedly, had these same experiences and they have no doubts. They have no doubts. Dreams fade by the next morning. I was given that White Amnesia. I was told that my brain could not remember anything that would happen in that coma and my brain did not. But my soul did. So that's the only explanation for me. And that has been corroborated by so many other people all over the world. There's no doubt for me.

[00:32:27] Steve: Kathy's experience occurred while in a coma, not when her heart stopped, as you might imagine.

[00:32:33] Kathy: That's correct. And having been around the IANDS group, the International Association of Near-Death Studies, I've been around hundreds of NDE'ers and it's well accepted that a person in a coma, somehow your soul drifts off and you can have a near-death experience without flatlining The Cambridge dictionary describes it as an "experience described by some people who've been close to death, in which the person feels as if they've left their body, and are watching themselves from above".

[00:33:05] Steve: And then you just mentioned the international Association for Near-Death Studies, and they talk about pleasurable NDEs and distressing NDEs. What is your definition of a near-death experience?

[00:33:20] Kathy: A near-death experience for me was waking up or becoming conscious in another realm. I never felt dead, Steve. I just felt me. People ask me, "Well did you see your feet? Did you see your body?". Well, I didn't think to do that. And I, and they said, "Well how much time were you there?" Well, there's no time on the other side.

[00:33:43] You don't have a clock. You don't have a mirror. It's just you. And you're not in Kansas anymore, as Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz said. it's, It's a very, very strange experience. 

[00:33:56] Steve: So Kathy's view of religion inevitably changed, and actually, was this a religious experience at all? 

[00:34:04] Kathy: Not for me. Some people talk to Jesus, talk to Buddha, talk to angels and guides. I I got the boot too quick. 

[00:34:13] After I got back, having experienced that overwhelming love of God, and also 10 years later finally meeting the IANDS people and hearing what they thought about God being all loving and all forgiving, my religion didn't make sense anymore. 

[00:34:34] I had been having some problems with it as an adult, and now I was pushed over the top. Since then, it's been 23 years, I've done a lot of studying and I'm not a Catholic anymore. I, can't, I'm not, gosh it's so hard to explain. There's a deconstruction movement out there. There's a lot of people on the same boat, having troubles. 

[00:34:58] But with the IANDS people, I I don't believe that God condemns anybody. And then that left me with, "Why did I go to hell?" I've come to realize that I made my own hell because I expected it. I was taught that I would go to purgatory and I wasn't disappointed. And I also believe that we plan our own lives to have experiences here on Earth and then we go back to heaven. And I believe therefore that I plan that too. 

[00:35:31] I've learned through other people who have had the dark experiences, the distressing ones. One particular expert says that she believes that we are the brave souls, not the damned ones; that we elected to go into the darkness, into the fear, experience it, and then bring back the knowledge, the hope to share with others, that you don't have to go to hell. 

[00:35:58] I mean, if I had a bumper sticker, it would say, "Skip the trip". I believe I went there because I made my own. 

[00:36:07] that's what I'm trying to help people with. All the religions seem to be so exclusive rather than inclusive. They all have man-made rules. A lot of them have to do with, if you do not follow our religion or our rules, you will go to hell. 

[00:36:27] And that's a terrible thing to tell people it's not right. It's incorrect. So, People that come back are usually spiritual, not religious. Yeah, we've been there, we've met God, we've experienced where we're going to go, and religion just doesn't cut it.

[00:36:50] Steve: Part of Kathy's catharsis was to write a book, "Misfit In Hell to Heaven Expat", which having heard the story, beautifully fits the narrative, but I couldn't help asking what possessed her. 

[00:37:05] Kathy: It was a possession. I mean, I was always a writer. I was always writing short stories and articles and diaries and stuff. But when I got back, that hell thing was haunting me so terribly, I thought if I could just write this out, you know, and put it in a drawer, maybe it'll go away. You know, and I wrote it and rewrote, and rewrote it, rewrote it, and that went on for 10 years.

[00:37:28] I got it done. We got it published, two years ago in June. And then I got a call from Kirsty Salisbury from 

[00:37:37] New Zealand, and she says, I want you to be on my podcast for NDE'ers I said, What's a podcast?

[00:37:43] And she says, "Well it's 

[00:37:44] kinda like a radio show I says, Oh, okay. 

[00:37:48] Steve: What would your thoughts be about dying again? 

[00:37:52] Kathy: I can't wait. There's this little tiny piece of me that says, "Oh shoot. Wonder if you go back to purgatory". And I just have to say, "That's your human mind talking, forget it". 

[00:38:02] Nobody would listen to my story for 10 years. "What did you do to go to hell?", you know, "Oh my God, that's terrible". But my dad listened. He was the only one of my family and friends. And when he was dying of Covid a year and a half ago, he and I had been talking throughout the years about what Heaven's like, and he was 97. 

[00:38:21] And I told him, "You know, it is so cool. I'm just so jealous. Yeah, you just look at the ceiling now dad because even the hospice people will tell you; Always, they send somebody to come get you. All right? It'll be at least one person, usually two. The hospice people even see if they've been there long enough, they see the lights coming in and stuff. So don't worry, somebody will come get you". 

[00:38:44] So, when he was dying, he was at home, thank God, because my mom and sister and brother-in-law also got Covid but weren't very sick. So the hospital let him come home to die rather than having him die alone in the hospital like most people were doing. 

[00:38:58] So just before he died, he looked up at the ceiling just all of a sudden and got this great big smile on his face and closed his eyes and died. And a few days later, I was talking to my medium publisher and he came through for her. She said, "Your dad's here and he wants to tell you something". And it was all kind of in symbols and stuff, but he wanted to let me know his mom and sister had come to get him, and that he was fine. It was too cool. 

[00:39:28] Steve: You've seen this experience as a chance to help others. Can you just expand on that a little bit for me? 

[00:39:35] Kathy: It took me a long time to realize that what happened to me was a blessing, not a curse. I've been able to reach a lot of people who have the same fears I used to have, and just share my story and give them hope, particularly with people that have lost loved ones and are afraid. You know, "My dad got divorced. Did he go to hell?" Or "My son", you know, "got involved with drugs. Did he go to hell?" And it's like, "No. Nobody goes to hell". We all picked our lives and all the experiences because we chose them and we wanted to learn things. And when we go home, there's a life review, but it is no way a judgment situation. 

[00:40:19] We just get to see how we did for every moment of our lives. And then they switch the screen around and we get to feel how it was to interact with us on a day-to-day basis, when we were being our best, when we weren't being our best. Just for the experience of it, just to, to realize what choices bring, what consequences. This whole Earth thing is a school. I've been told that Earth is the toughest gig you can choose when you're coming. That this has got a very low, dense energy and a lot of, we know that, you know, this is a tough place to be. 

[00:41:00] But the experiences that we get from it are really worth it I'm told when we get back. And I never used to believe in it, reincarnation, you know, the church forbid that, and, but it's, it's very obviously something that's real. And the universe is so immense and endless and, wonderful, our little human minds can't even begin to understand that. Yeah, there's a lot of other universes and planets and beings, and we can choose to come down and be on another planet as another being. The possibilities are endless because it's eternal. 

[00:41:41] I was given a message, a couple years after the experience when I was starting to doubt what was going on, and I asked God, you know, as the voice I asked him, God "Please give me some positive things to make a mantra out of, so that I can every day remind myself that all this was real", and he said to be loving and kind, merciful, forgiving, encouraging, grateful, non-judgmental and useful. 

[00:42:15] If I could just keep that in my mind every day, you're gonna be a good person. So, that's what I would suggest to people. That's what Jesus taught. That's what Buddha taught. That's what all the great people taught. If you can just remember to be loving and kind.

[00:42:32] Steve: Well, there's something we can all agree on. And if that's the message that comes out of this journey, then what's the problem? As for Kathy, has she got back to normal yet?

[00:42:46] Kathy: Once you've had that experience, it changes you. You can't just go back to being your everyday human anymore, it's impossible.

[00:42:57]